Saturday, November 17, 2007

Wayne Grudem on the State of the Gender Debate and the Way Forward

Sorry, folks, this post was intended for the Complegalitarian blog, not this blog. I thought I had deleted it from this blog after I discovered my mistake, but I was mistaken about the deletion of the mistake! :-)

The post content didn't belong here on the TNIV Truth blog. I won't delete this space on the blog since there are now two comments, but I invite you to read the post where it was intended to be in the first place.


Apprentice2Jesus said...

Grudem's comments again highlight my frustration in English translations. While I continue to hold out hope the TNIV will catch on and they will start making good "regular" Bibles, this is not the case. It keeps getting delayed and the TNIV is not showing up in Bible sales in the top 10 if I read that last list right.

Then, the ESV is a good alternative for me, since I like more formal translations, yet when I think of Grudem and the underlying philosophy, I get put off by that as well.

I await a good English translation that can become my main study Bible...wide margins, nice font size, etc. And there are still these arguments, and lack of movement on Zondervan to push the TNIV out more...Ay! Ay! Ay! What a dilemma!

Gary Zimmerli said...

My own study, Wayne, tells me that the reason the debate is still going on is that it has become like the debate between Catholics and Protestants. Both sides are talking past each other to the point that the two sides no longer even hear the other side's arguments. It's almost as if they don't speak the same language any more.

Suzanne McCarthy said...


What have the TNIV translators ever said against the ESV? This has been one sided from the first.

Gary Zimmerli said...

Oh no, Suzanne, I didn't mean that the TNIV people had said anything against the ESV. I'm only saying that they don't seem to be able to communicate with each other, almost like they speak different languages.

Suzanne McCarthy said...

Imagine that they actually know each other in person! They socialize etc. although with enormous pain on the TNIV side. The ESV people seem to have their natural affections perverted in my view. They drag the work of their close colleagues through the dirt with glee. They don't seem to have the normal sorts of feelings that one person should have for another. They did not go to the TNIV people in private first. Imagine that you are having lunch with a friend one day and the next day you hear him on radio dragging your publication through the mud, and he never even gave you a clue that he would do that. Imagine that you are both theologians who ostensibly believe in the scriptures.

I hope people know that theologians are incredibly non Bible following people in general and capable of some very cold blooded behaviour.

Apprentice2Jesus said...


Your comment about theologians is painfully true.

Last year as the seminary I attend Donald Hagner from Fuller came and spoke for a series of lectures. I attend a Lutheran seminary, so I was excited to hear someone from Fuller.

His series was fabulous. He lifted up the need for the power of the Word of God in our churches once again.

Before he came, he was REQUIRED to submit his lectures in full to the faculty of the seminary. The reason became clear at the end of the day when one of the seminary's biblical studies profs got up and gave a one hour response to what Dr. Hagner had lectured on. She ripped him apart point by point, and lethally so since she had all his lectures in hand well before the day of the lectureship series.

Dr. Hagner had no idea this was going to happen. He had not been given the courtesy in return of having HER paper before she presented it. He had to sit there and take this lynching, trying furiously to take notes and then have five minutes to respond.

I was so shocked. I see it happen in writing all the time, but I had never witnessed a live lynching like that before.

Theologians really can be the most "unChristian" among Christians. God help us.

Curt said...

I think it's important that we distinguish the gender debate that Grudem was specifically referencing (if I'm reading him correctly) from the gender language debate regarding translations. The two are related, but not identical. There are many complementarians who strongly support the TNIV.

Gary's observation is spot on concerning the gender debate, IMO. Motives are frequently attributed to the other side and fallacious arguments are almost routinely used---on both sides. Of course, there are those who strive to use good reasoning, but the gender debate is becoming another unfortunate example of us being largely unable to fairly and lovingly engage each other on controversial issues.

We can't arrive at any consensus until we stop trying to merely win arguments and learn to really listen to each other.

Suzanne McCarthy said...

a2j (I know that I knew your name but have forgotten, sorry)

I can hardly believe that someone would do that without advance notice or decent room for rebuttal. Not a very good host(ess).

I have emailed and asked permission etc before publishing my stuff and those who ask me not to quote them don't get quoted - outside of published books, of course.

Charis said...

Not sure which of your blogs this would fit best, but I want to share something which led me to feel intensely betrayed by Bible translations.

This link goes to 4 popular translations of 1 Tim 2:3-5 which ALL say that God wants MEN to be saved! Note that these verses are in the immediate context of the famous proof text used to restrict the ministry of women- 1 Tim 2:12. SO, reading in the English of 4 popular, widely used Bible versions- not only does God only want men saved, HE wants women to shut up too? I'm not sure if you can register what a SLAP IN THE FACE that feels like as a woman! I was NOT a new christian when I hit this personal "identity crisis"... I had been a born again, spirit filled, evangelical Christian for 25 years!!!

So, at the time, I was active on an online forum and there was a man whom I highly respect who was also very firmly and consistent with his complementarian theology (so consistent that I got him to admit that women really shouldn't vote because that takes authority over men). I posted about 1 Tim 2:3-5 and he pointed out that the translators did that because they were trying to preserve a parallel visible in the Greek
between the MAN/ANTHROPOS- Jesus, and Mankind/anthropos.
WHATEVER! (read that with BIG eye-roll!)