Monday, March 19, 2007

the anti-feminist TNIV

I have just seen a first. A blogger named James begins his post by quoting Genesis 2:18-23 from the TNIV to support his post against feminism.

Later in his post he says:
As Christ does not seek equality to God, man should not seek equality with Christ and woman should not seek equality to man.
Hmm, let all who accuse the TNIV of being a feminist Bible listen up!


Suzanne McCarthy said...

As Christ took on the nature of man, so man ought to take on the nature of women. Hmm.

How about, as Christ took on the lowliness of man, so men ought to take on the lowliness of women.

Bro Jms said...

Hi Suzanne,

2 Timothy 3:16, 17 - 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

When Christ came in the lowliness of man, he came to save mankind (John 3:16-21). God's purpose. No where in scripture do I see how man taking on the lowliness of woman would better mankind.

In fact, the closes thing I find is when man is liken to a woman in pangs of labor. Referring to when God's enemy are acting cowardly. Or when God's people are in distress due to captivity or lamentations.
(Isaiah 13:8, Jeremiah 48:41, Jeremiah 49:24).

Suzanne McCarthy said...

I meant that it would be better for womankind. Christ took on the lowliness of man for mankind, likewise men ought to take on the lowliness of woman for womankind.

Men ought not to take advantage of women by exercizing authority over them. They should freely offer women functional equality - there is no other kind.

Peter Kirk said...

They no longer want to be his helper but his equal

This guy obviously completely misunderstands "helper" in Genesis 2:18. I could blame TNIV for not using an expression which makes it clear that the "helper" was supposed to be of equal status. But then almost all Bible versions have the same inadequacy.

reGeNeRaTe said...

I think the gentleman misunderstands the Philippian passage. Just because Christ has the humility not to use His divinity as a calling card with us when He walked the earth does NOT mean He was not God.

Um, and if Christ is not equal with the Father, isn't that Arianism?

Me wonders. Anyway, thanks for this blog. It's very informative and much appreciated. Peace


Wayne Leman said...

Kat asked:

Um, and if Christ is not equal with the Father, isn't that Arianism?

Yes, it is, Kat. Phil. 2:6, of course, if the verse that James the blogger, was referring to. It is a difficult verse to understand, especially if we leave it translated fairly literally. Some versions do make it sound like equality with God was something that Christ did not "grasp," and to some people that can sound like he decided not to be equal with God. I happen to think that a better translation is that equality with God was not something "to be held on to" for Christ, but I may be showing my theological bias.

Here is how the ESV, NIV, and TNIV translated Phil. 2:6:

who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped (ESV)

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (NIV)

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage (TNIV)

Notice the significant revision the TNIV made to the NIV on this very point. The TNIV wording assumes that Christ was equal with God. That assumption is not clear from the ESV or NIV wordings, although I know that the translators of those versions believe that Christ is equal with God.

Those who believe in the deity of Christ but who take Phil. 2:6 to mean that Christ chose not to be equal with God understand the verse to refer to the temporary time interval when Christ lived as a human on earth. During that time he willingly gave up some of his divine privileges to become like us, to serve us. What a Savior!

Bro Jms said...

I believe when man does that they give way for the devil to come in (Genesis 3, Genesis 19, Judges 16, 1 Kings 11, 1 Kings 21, Revelation 2:18-29). For it written, 1 Timothy 2:11-15 - 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
I don't believe a man should take advantage of the women either. But, they are not be in subjection to woman, but woman is to be subject to man (Ephesians 5:22-30).
As far as functional equality, in marriage the husband is the head of the family, no equality. The biblical role/or respect for her husband is mention at 1 Peter 3: 1-8,
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

reGeNeRaTe/Wayne Leman, I believe Jesus is God, but not the Father. Though they are one, they are not equal. Where in the scripture does it speak of them being equal. At Luke 22:41-43 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.
Here, Jesus submitted not to his own will, but the will of the Father.

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13:32 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Though the Father and Son are One, they are not equal. If they were equal, both the Father and Son would know the day and hour.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
In verse 28, it speaks of the Son himself will be made subject (one that is placed under authority or control) to the Father, not equal.

Bro Jms said...
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Bro Jms said...
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reGeNeRaTe said...


Thanks for the clarification. I'm not sure what is sadder: trumpeting a questionable exegetical analysis of a passage to protect one's imagined turf or parroting one of the most egregious doctrinal errors in all of Church history.

I'm getting to the place where I read my GNT along with as many other translations as I can bear when studying.

I greatly appreciate all the hard work you and your crew are doing to advance the kingdom of God.



Bro Jms said...

2 Timothy 3:16,17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

1 Timothy 1:3-7,
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain persons not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God's work—which is by faith. 5 The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

Galatians 1:6-12,
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God's curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God's curse!
10 Am I now trying to win human approval, or God's approval? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any human source, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:3-6,
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Those who say, "I know him," but do not do what he commands are liars, and the truth is not in them. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

2 Timothy 4:3,
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Hebrews 5:12,
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!